Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds
“Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds”
J. Robert Oppenheimer (quoting the Bhagavad Gita)
May 4th, 2002 at 9:34 am in Quotes
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January 30th, 2003 at 8:41 pm
i came upon your website as i had an apocalyptic dream with the words, “i am become” . i mentioned it to a friend and he told me about oppenheimer quoting the bhagavad gita. i had no previous knowlege of these things and given the prophetic nature of the rest of the dream, i wanted to do research. has anyone had an apocalyptic dream with these words in it? what is the purpose of this site?
January 30th, 2003 at 8:43 pm
my comment text was already posted but i had forgotten to put my name and address.
February 18th, 2003 at 9:07 am
no, i am death, destroyer of all worlds
cheese
February 18th, 2003 at 9:09 am
i am the destroyer of dairylea, cheese mistro baloon cabbage baw
February 18th, 2003 at 9:10 am
i had a dream last night, you were there with ur knickers in the air
April 24th, 2003 at 11:17 am
Ya’ll are WEIRD!
May 4th, 2003 at 8:44 pm
hum chum bum rum tum
umm…yeah.
August 10th, 2003 at 1:01 am
rum a tum tum, he’ll cum in ya bum
run for your lives
September 6th, 2003 at 4:21 pm
July 16, 1945
[Robert Oppenheimer, near Alamagordo, New Mexico]
If the radiance of a thousand suns
were to burst into the sky at once,
that would mirror the Mighty One’s splendor….
I am become Death –World-destroyer.
–The Bhagavad Gita
Everything was so much clearer
when it seemed the Germans might get the thing first….
Now it’s all so terribly muddy….
Who knows what these generals’ll do with it.
…The radiance of a thousand suns….
That 100-foot tower –completely gone!…
If we didn’t do it, someone surely would….
I am become Death –destroyer of Worlds.
September 9th, 2003 at 10:55 pm
enter powderd toast man.
September 27th, 2003 at 10:26 am
America has become Death, the destroyer of worlds, yet how they weep and wail when the same is afflicted upon them -9/11.
We will not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki -the first ever act of global terrorism.
November 7th, 2003 at 4:20 pm
[QUOTE]America has become Death, the destroyer of worlds, yet how they weep and wail when the same is afflicted upon them -9/11.
We will not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki -the first ever act of global terrorism.[/QUOTE]
That was not Terrorism, this was simply an act to stop WWII. If that was Terrorism then Pearl Harbor was also Terrorism…
November 9th, 2003 at 10:54 am
“And the seventh angel poured out his vial [nuke] into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It is done.’ And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,…And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven [Fallout], every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail [Fallout]; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”
November 29th, 2003 at 7:37 pm
In my copy of the gita the quote is “time i am the destroyer of worlds”.
hiroshima and nagasaki being an act of war well you could argue that the japanese would have got the message if you had droped it near them and not on them. do you think hitler would have said the same if he had developed the bomb first and dropped it on say new york and washington i can here him now “i did it to stop the war”. I believe also hitler once quoted the latin proverb “history is written by the victors” so think on that each civilised country sweeps its little nasties under their own carpets take the U.S with the native americans talk about genoside for gain or the UK in india, africa australia etc the history of the world it cluttered with filth of one kind or another and justified by those with the bigges sticks.
for now my one candle wish is peace on earth and good will toward men.
December 1st, 2003 at 8:54 pm
People act like it was a unprecedented act, and that the Japanese didn’t do anything wrong. I am not even talking about Pearl Harbor, or other military targets. I am talking about the civilan devestation such as in Nanking and all throughout China. The Rape of Nanking was widely publicized throughout all of Japan. Newspapers kept tabs on how many civilians Japanese generals could behead within the hour. There was even a contest to see who could decapitate 200 (I believe it was that number) in the shortest period of time. This was widely publicized throughout Japan.
The Japanese people were bred and taught to think that all non-Japanese were worth less in their eyes, and were pretty much on the same level as pigs.
I don’t want to give the idea that I think that the two atomic bombs were a great decision, but I don’t want people to have the idea that the Japanese population was just some innocent bystanders attacked by big bad America.
Also, it is my opinion that the United States didn’t even drop the atomic bombs to really end the war. They did it to attempt to keep the Soviet Union in check within Eastern Europe. It was more of an indirect threat to the Uncle Joe Stalin as it was an attack on the Japanese.
December 4th, 2003 at 11:22 pm
Think about this: If the U.S. hadn’t dropped the bomb, the war would have continued on for at least several months longer. In that case, the U.S. would have invaded Japan “the old fashioned way.” How many people would have died then? Over a period of several months, the death count would have been a lot higher than what it was on that one fateful day. Also, the U.S. would have been sacrificing thousands of their own soldiers in addition to Japanese; it just wouldn’t be a smart move on their part. I’m not saying I’m glad it happened, but I think it would have been worse if it didn’t.
January 11th, 2004 at 2:48 pm
“And the seventh angel poured out his vial [nuke] into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It is done.’ And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,…And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven [Fallout], every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail [Fallout]; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”
- ?
Ok, first of all, people shouldn’t drop interpretations directly into text, it isn’t tasteful. Secondly, this is the same quote used in the first millenium, 6th, and 9th centuries to predict there would be a great volcanic eruption similar to the story of Atlantis and to predict a great flood that would engulf the world. None of which occurred. It’s been interpreted as a great war, a disease, a major climate change, a continent-shattering earthquake, a crashing comet, and even taken literally if its possible. So lets face it, that stupid prophecy is conveniently obscure enough to be absolutely anything, much like a Nostradamus vision.
And to be nitpicky, hail the “weight of a talent” can’t possibly be fallout, which is normally smaller than your average dustmite.
Sheesh. If someone isn’t calling humans gods, there’s someone calling them devils.
Oh, and just to make the above flame war more fun: the United States had recieved word that the japanese were considering a surrender but went ahead with the bombing anyway.
January 30th, 2004 at 9:28 am
The Japanese people were bred and taught to think that all non-Japanese were worth less in their eyes, and were pretty much on the same level as pigs.
–
As are american children taught today at school, they may not be directly taught that every one else is worthless, but they are very firmly indoctrinated with the concept that they are better than everyone else.
History is written by the victors, the usa is doing many things that it is banning from the rest of the world. Above example for one, and for a second example disarming nuclear weapons, which they are most certainly not doing while while at the same time pressuring smaller nations into doing.
In hindsight there are many things that could have been done instead during WW2, but wailing against the crimes in the past does nothing to solve the problems of the present.
February 5th, 2004 at 5:32 pm
There is more here than I would have expected. Just a quick follow-up on some of the comments here, from the “I’m really ashamed to be an American right now” viewpoint:
The Rape of Nanking, horrible as it was, did not justify the use of atomic weapons against the Japanese civilian population. In exactly the same way, the monstrous crimes committed (let us assume) by religious extremists on 11 Sep 2001 do not justify in any way the attacks the US has since made on other countries. I think the earlier posting that pointed out that using the A-bomb against Japan was really a long-term strategic move against the Soviets (then ostensibly our allies) is quite correct. In any case, by modern standards–and assuming that the rules are applied fairly to all–ALL of these acts are crimes against humanity, and the perpetrators should be judged accordingly.
Oh, and can we please never again try to bring passages from the Bible, and especially from Revelation, into a serious discussion of history?
February 8th, 2004 at 8:20 pm
Where were you people when George Bush was off getting himself elected? Oh I forgot, he lost the popular vote.
No doubt there were ancillary political justifications for dropping the bombs on Japan, but don’t take the event out of context. The war in the Pacific was ugly, and many more people would have died on both sides had the U.S. not dropped the bombs, because an allied invasion of Japan was also imminent. Both cities were major industrial centers and key seaports for imperial Japan. If I been alive then, and had relatives fighting out there, no doubt I would have wanted it done as quickly as possible. For me, the firebombing of Dresden, Germany was far less morally justified because the allies knew it was not a military target. Incendiary bombing of Dresden was a punitive act against a civilian populace, in a city with no heavy industry. And it killed as many people as the Hiroshima bomb.
I must echo the comments of “snowy” above - “for now my one candle wish is peace on earth and good will toward men.” Reading all your comments gives me hope that justice might one day prevail; only then can there be true and lasting peace. Stay angry. Seek the truth. Hold your elected leaders accountable. And don’t forget to vote!
Peace.
February 11th, 2004 at 2:15 pm
Unfortunately war has its positive side as well, if it were not for conflict the rate of developement would be much slower. Ever nation has like committed crimes against humanity, either overt or covert, but the technology of today has advanced due to it.
The firebombing of Dresden was in responce to Germany’s bombing of nono-military targets, and granted, that does not fully justify what happened, it was not done on a whim to attack german civilians.
The A-bombing of Japan may have put a swift end to the war, but if Japan was in fact planning on surrendering, and the US knew about it, then that gives even less reason for the bombing.
The sad fact of life at present, as it may not always be that way, is that if you want peace and freedom, you have to be prepared to fight and die for it.
February 24th, 2004 at 8:01 am
The problem is that people want peace, but without paying for it. The kind of free peace they clamor for is simply nonexistant, except in their irrational dreams.
Peace is bought at a price, and only in the last 50 years or so has this new concept arisen: human rights, without any human RESPONSIBILITIES. People want peace, but they dont want to own up to the fact that they may have to go out and fight to preserve it. People want security, but they feign horror when their government takes drastic measures to insure its security. People want success and progress, but not if, God forbid, it makes them look bad.
The United States (like every other country, even pseudo-political bodies like the U.N.) has consistently made decisions acting in its own best interests. THIS IS NOT A CRIME. This is the natural and proper function of any and every government. This is what governments were designed to do… Therein is where the problem lies.
With that in mind, I have a more appropriate Scripture reference… the Israelites had been ruled directly by God, but they wanted a king, to be more like the surrounding nations. The last completely free people voluntarily submitted themselves to the yoke of government.
In 1 Sam. 8:11-18, the prophet Samuel warns of the consequences of their request, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day.”
Government has always been a hindrance, taxing us, restraining us, and generally doing the civilian’s job, but more inefficiently and expensively. But we are the ones who voluntarily accept these shackles. Am I an anarchist? By all means, no. I accept the constraints of government, because I recognize that it is the only way of securing our safety in a troubled world. But when that perfect world comes, I take joy in the knowledge that no government will be necessary any longer.
February 24th, 2004 at 11:03 am
America HAS become death.
We are a nation addicted to competetive violence. Despite our christian influence we are a nation devoted to social and political darwinism.
Those of you preaching US honor during WWII, please read your history. There is little evidence to suggest that Hiroshima was necessary. (historians don’t even support the claim that land invasion was necessary….Japan was already ready to capitulate by this point). Nagasaki was pure blood-lust. [also remember that prior to the 2 A-bombs the US fire-bombed Tokyo - and this in itself caused 100,000 casualties].
On to recent times. How long will we use 9/11 to justify the bombing of innocent citizenry? Civilian casualties in Afghanistand & Iraq (as a result of our invasions) have already ecliped 9/11 by several thousand. Are is arab mother’s anquish less severe? Is she any more guilty?
She is in our eyes. As were the Japanese. Our objective is neither peace nor justice…it is simply anihilation. [to crush the competition, hence the essence of republican capitalism].
Amen and Amen
March 2nd, 2004 at 4:44 pm
The comments which say that America is death, you are wrong. but yes you are right that it was not necessary to kill off all the civllins in japan or Iraqi. But at the same time it was there was no other way around it if we would have sat back and just let the war go on the way it was we would have lost many soldiers, marines anyone in the armed forces, includeing Iraqi armed personal. I believe that you need to check your history. can anyone tell me what america means? it means home and defender of freedom. Which then means that we must take out anyone who treatens freedom. For the matter of Iraqi you go over there and live there for a few days (before america Assisted in the independes of the Iraqi people) then you come back and tell me that you didnt want americas help.
As for japan in my opinion japan got what it had coming to them….like they say “you mess with the best you die like the rest”….GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!
March 3rd, 2004 at 7:46 am
u r all tossers
March 8th, 2004 at 1:20 pm
This was an interesting thread until people started quoting the bible and saying ‘God Bless America.’
March 9th, 2004 at 11:12 pm
I don’t know how I got to this thread, but it was interesting to read it all.. from what has been said, America wouldn’t mean defender of freedom, it was named after an Italian remember? America (or better said the USA) does nothing else than neutralizing its opponents somehow, it takes the rest of the world as its backyard. Iraqi people don’t want americans there anymore, and if they get along NOW or not, it’s not the States’ problem anymore! the worst part (at least for U americans) is that you have to pay for it.. education in the States has been the same for at least 20 years, come on wake up duh! Maybe is right to say that every strong nation has to defend its interests, but not in this way.. WE ARE NOT USA’S BACKYARD.. WE ARE NOT!
March 11th, 2004 at 6:23 pm
Well…nothing really to say here. i see that america had done the right thing by becoming involed in iraqi but yes would should get out of there no it is no longer our fight if the people of iraqi wish for more help then tell them do it on there own. I also agree that america is the defender of freedom but there is a point to where america needs to butt out of other peoples problems.
March 30th, 2004 at 11:11 am
The statement that Japan was preparing to surrender before Hiroshima is bald-faced lie. If anything, they were preparing to fight to the death. There would have been untold thousands of Americans dying on Japan’s shoreline attempting to put an end to the carnage the Japanese started with their cowardly attack on Pearl Harbor.
President Truman did the RIGHT thing. Decades later apologists can say what they will, that will never change.
April 3rd, 2004 at 1:35 am
Brayden. America can mean anything it wants. my name means ’snub-nosed’. does that mean i have a snub nose? no, its actually very big.
and Japan ‘got what was coming to it?’ Japan joined a war, and lost. why do you gloat? and no, America is not ‘the best’. Jesus said “turn the other cheek” “pray for your enemies” and “love those that hate you” How many people tried to talk to the Japanese? how many people tried to work out a truce? no, it was an eye for an eye. whether or not Hiroshma and Nagasaki were terrorist acts or not is academic to those thousands that died.
Iraq itself was needless. do some reseaech. Most of those terrorists were Saudis who had been trained and supplied by the American government. America has indeed become death, and i will pray for those innocents who live there.
April 9th, 2004 at 5:05 am
What of Vietnam? What were America doing in there? Has any one considered how only a single passport made it out of the 9/11 inforno? What is the total debt that the US has and has not payed back to other countries? And where are those WDM’s that the US using as an esxuse to go to war in the first place?
Although I may agree that it was probably necessary to attack the terrorists, how many people have seen the news of the Iraqi civilians that were quite happy to attack the US “liberators” and burn them? That doesnt seem like a happely newly freed country to me. It looks more like re-repressed county with new rules.
“japan got what it had coming to them” ? Did they really? That sound more like a school yard bully defending his actions when the teacher comes outside. How is it that when ever a discussion like this comes up, its the fanatical Americans against the rest of the world?
April 17th, 2004 at 10:19 am
“How is it that when ever a discussion like this comes up, its the fanatical Americans against the rest of the world?”
Because in every discussion like this some european(s) take the “bash america” stance no matter what the subject.. maybe?
Stop blaming us for all the worlds problems. Do we really have that much influence over your lives?
We’re NOT taught in school that we’re better than everyone else. If anything were taught that being american makes us guilty for all the worlds (and domestic ethnic peoples)woes. This is the inderlying message implanted by a largely liberal teacher pool and socialistic university values.
While you point the finger at us you take a pompus and arrogant stance yourself. In other words, you’re a hypocrate. The average american has no ambitions for world politics and largely disagrees with its governments decisions and interference in our and others lives.
As far as dropping the bomb on Japan: To this day, the very purple hearts that are given to our wounded soldiers are the same ones minted just before the anticipated invasion of Japan. Millions of casualties were expected on both sides.
Was it the right decision? I don’t know, Im a generation away from those who fought and wouldn’t dare to assume I understand their decisions. But comparing it to Hitler dropping a bomb is just irrisponsible and idiotic. America didn’t systematically exterminate millions of peoples or practice mass decapitations on civillions.
the Japanese have a shrine in Kobe dedicated to “the rape of nanking” glorifying their actions. Is this the right decision? Why aren’t you complaining about that?
maybe because you are taught that america is unequivecally wrong and other countries ‘deserve’ to feel the way they do. Stop swallowing popular opinion that is spoon fed to you and start thinking for yourselves. It’s easy to throw a blanket over a situation and simply chalk it all up to one factor.
Britian and many other countries are involved in Iraq also. Why can’t you see that?
And what about the Falklands? I suppose you have a justification of your own for that.
If america didn’t get involved in WWII all of europe would probably be speaking german right now. Except for jews, gypsies, russians, gays, free thinkers, intellects, the handicapped, artists, any ethnics and a whole host of others. They would have been exterminated.
Were we wrong for getting involved in the affairs of others in WWII? Or does that not apply because you benifited from the outcome?
There are more foriegn nationals in america that go to our universities, are given money to open their own business, work for high pay, have health care and can speak their own minds unlike in alot of their own countries. Yet every chance they get they take a giant shit on us. It’s like a spoiled child that gets his huge allowance and then talks about what assholes his parents are.
You may call us the whore of babylon but you are all to eager to sit at table and eat from our fare.
April 17th, 2004 at 10:26 am
“This was an interesting thread until people started quoting the bible and saying ‘God Bless America.”
But quoting the “Bhagavad Gita” (a religous text) is ok… Just shows peoples hypocracy.
April 24th, 2004 at 10:12 pm
At the beginning of WW2, before the US entered the war, the US government decried and condemned the mass bombing of non-military civilian targets… particularly cities, by the Germans. At Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well as at Dresden, we used weapons of mass destruction against targets that we arguably non-military. Even in the context of “total war” where the civilian population is completely mobilized in support of a war effort and could be called a military target, these three cities were far far down the list of strategic targets.
Dresden was targeted for mass destruction by firebombing at the insistance of the British - there had to be retribution for the Blitz. The UK would have its revenge with American help. The US air forces dropped high expolsive bombs during daylight raids over several days. This had the effect of turning one of the oldest cities in northern Europe, and one of the respositories of nearly 1500 years of European culture into kindling. The Brits followed with night bombing raids using incendiary bombs. The resulting inferno incinerated between 50,000 and 135,000 people. The vast majority were civlians. No one will ever know how many since it was a refugee center that had previously been off limits to attack. There was no military value to the city.
When it came time for America to exact its retribution for Pearl Harbor, it would do so without any assistance for the British.
Hiroshima was untouched by prior bombing. Ironically, it held the largest Christian population in Japan- principally Catholic. It was chosed as a “demonstration site” because it was not damaged by prior attack, and could therefore be used as a pristine measure of the effects of the air burst nuclear device. Nagasaki was a back-up site. The primary target for the bomb that day was Niigata, a fishing and agricultural center on the Sea of Japan coast. It was overcast that day, so the target was shifted to a secondary site that was clear, primarily in order to get good quality color motion pictures of the blast from the air. Seems like a decision made in Hollywood.
In both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, beautiful cities populated mostly with noncombatant women, children, and the elderly, countless thousands were incinerated or badly injured. This was done to “end the war.” It is possible that it did accelerate the end of WW2. It may have resulted in the net saving of lives. I know there are many people, both in the US, and even in Japan, who believe that more people lived because the bombs were used in the way they were. It is also true that before the bombs were used, Japan was pressing for a peace settlement through communications with neutral parties. They wanted some “terms”, fairly limited, but important to them. America, on the other hand, wanted “unconditional surrender.” It is fairly certain that the use of the bombs accelerated this “unconditional” state of mind in the Japanese high command. Ironically, after the surrender, the relatively benevolent occupying authority granted almost all the terms the Japanese had asked for in their suit for peace.
In light of these recently established facts, the question one must ask is “What did we get for the massacre of tens of thousands of non-combatant civilians - children, women, old people, and the destruction of ancient, beautiful cities?”
Somehow, the image of brave young men, in sparkling clean instruments of high technology, streaking through the air at high altitude and dropping powerful bombs on a ruthless and recalcitrant enemy is somehow an acceptable, even admirable thing to envision.
“It was necessary,” we tell ourselves, “to ‘end the war.’” But if we were to line up all those people who were slaughtered, and instead, be required to look them in the eye, as we personally executed them, one by one, the small children, the infants, the junior high school students, the old left behind as too frail to serve the Emperor (throughout the “Co-prosperity Sphere” that Japan had hoped to extort upons its neighbors), and then put a bullet into their head or chest, we might think differently.
What is the difference?
What have we gained, if, in order to defeat an evil empire, we adopt its ruthless measures, and heartless ethic?
What if we defeat our enemy, and in the process, become the very thing we sought to overcome - the very evil from which we sought to “make the world safe…?”
April 25th, 2004 at 6:56 pm
You can look back in history and find many atrocities commited by countries in the name of war. But can you look forward, and hope that humanity can learn from their mistakes, and learn to love rather than hate?
April 29th, 2004 at 12:23 pm
America has become death since it is the only remaining super-power. Successive US governments have taken it upon themselves to decide which, and what type of, governments are acceptable to it throughout the world. Does this reflect the view of the average citizen? Probably not, but then as a generality, Americans are very parochial in outlook, and rarely know or care what’s going on in the next state, let alone half way round the world. The US is a great country that has produced some truly great minds, but unfortunately it also produces some of the most stupid people on the planet. Rarely does the average citizen consider why a large portion of the world holds it to account for their problems. A clue? It’s money! The US consumes 25% of the world’s everything!!!!!! US Foreign policy shows no care for the peoples of the world yet presumes to dictate to them economically, politically and socially. Reading thru’ this there have been a number of comments from Americans who obviously care and give some thought to the state of the world, and to you I say bravo! To the ‘you’d all be speaking German’ brigade I say: you have some of the finest schools in the world at your disposal, pick one, and attend it.
May 2nd, 2004 at 3:46 pm
I am become death, the destroyer of whiteheads.
May 20th, 2004 at 8:41 pm
“The average american has no ambitions for world politics and largely disagrees with its governments decisions and interference in our and others lives.”
That’s just not true. Polls show that the majority of Americans SUPPORT the US invasion of Iraq.
And having had a lot of online discussions with Americans, a great deal of them also make comments like “Iraq should be reduced to a pile of rubble”, and that those US prisoners ‘got what was coming to them’, in spite of the fact that no link has ever been shown between Iraq and 9/11, over 50% of Americans still believe it. Many of the Americans I’ve had online discussions with preach the view that America *should* continue to smash other countries because ‘they are superior’ and that they should ‘win’ and ‘rule over other countries’ because they are superior (cf. comments above about ’social darwinism’ - spot on).
Leaders like Bush publicly decry the US prisoner abuse saying “this is not what Americans stand for”. But public opinions, polls etc, all indicate that for more than 50% of Americans, that IS what they stand for.
June 2nd, 2004 at 1:50 am
A Japanese surrender had already been discussed between high level Japanese govermental officials. Let it be noted that this unlikely prospect being discussed was not an unconditional surrender, something that both Roosevelt and Churchill both agreed years before would not be accepted. The Japanese emperor was urged by his entire cabinet as well as every military leader to fight to the death. The idea of a Japanese surrender before the dropping of the A-bombs is factually inaccurate.
June 5th, 2004 at 9:25 am
“I am become death; the destroyer of worlds”
that was the original quote by Robert Oppenheimer.
There was a music video made about this called the “River Below” by Billy Talent. It is a great song and the video is amazing to. I guess its about what drives people to do these horrific acts that kill so many people. I suggest some of you watch this.
this is the site…http://www.billytalent.com/bt_flash.html
The video is called the river below… watch it.
June 23rd, 2004 at 4:22 pm
If you dont think the dropping of the bombs was necessary, read about the circumstances regarding Iwo Jima.
The USA didnt want the entire nation of Japan to be a replay of that battle, and the only way to do that was to demonstrate that the only choices were extinction or surrender, and the Japanese soldiers would never even get the chance to die fighting.
June 25th, 2004 at 8:28 am
The video River Below by Billy Talent is based on this… that video’s awsome!
June 27th, 2004 at 5:42 pm
Anyone with confused ideas about American foreign policy should simply look up some of the solid concrete examples, the uncontroversial ones. Take the early 1970’s when democratically elected premier of Chile Salvador Allende was overthrown by a CIA inspired, armed and directed coup. Check it up if you don’t believer.
As for the laughable notions of America as the security guard of international law, again just examine the record: the mid-1980’s the USA is taken to the world court by Nicaragua for funding right-wing terrorists in their country. The court finds in favour of Nicaragua and orders reparations to be paid immediately by America for her “unlawful us of force” on a country a fraction of its size. Naturally the US ignored the finding of the court and furthermore in the UN Security council vetoed a resolution calling on all states to “observe international law”.
Humanity has always lived in a world dominated by the strongest and in their interests primarily. Under the Roman Empire, the British Empire etc. Who are we to congratulate ourselves that we live in some sort of enlightened time where human conduct has altered so hugely?
July 3rd, 2004 at 9:15 pm
Drop the bombs as they stand, and in peace through death let us leave this land.
people are inherently evil as it is, i dont see why everyone is so suprised people with power are willing to use it. we are bred to kill, not just humans but the life that is around us, we’ve evolved beyond simple creatures, we now play god not just daily, but minute to minute every day. i’m not a religious person whatsoever, but if your willing to figure out how to help cure disease creating artificial limbs, we need weapons of destruction and war, not because its good, because soon there will be nothing left for anything or anybody to live in. peace or not, we’ve fucked this planet 9 ways from sunday, simply by trying to defeat nature.
July 6th, 2004 at 7:03 pm
The USA (by dint of its “place”) in the world is expected to live up to a higher ethical standard (how it can live up to an ethical standard when there is no global ethical standard in the first place remains a mystery). As long as the US is the worlds foremost economic and military power it will be subject to that sniping.
Before anyone accuses me of being an arrogant American Ill point out that I’m actually English and I resent the implication that all Europeans (even unwilling Europeans) are “American hater’s”. As a general rule I’m in favor of the United States of America over most countries, of all the world powers (The USA is a world power in a different class to all before it and in a different way) the USA has been the most humane.
By any scale you care to measure the USA has to rank as one of the most humane and forward thinking countries in the world (though not in the last few years since Shrub purchased the presidency).
The common criticisms I see of the USA are hypocritical in nature, from “the US intervenes were it is not wanted” (sure because France, Germany, Spain, Britain, Italy ad infinitum never did that..), “does not do enough to help less wealthy countries” (I do not see Britain, France, Germany, Italy (you begin to see where I’m going with this..) doing anymore. “The US uses its military forces and projection of power to achieve its own objectives” I do not have a problem with this at all since 9 times out of 10 its objectives are in line with ours (meaning the UK).
Sure as a country the US is not perfect but then show me one that is
July 7th, 2004 at 11:24 am
No country is perfect and there will never be one that is. The world is run by the few monkeys fortunate enough to be handed a revolver. As for the rest of us we are no better, just jealous. We would fuck things up just as badly as they already have been. So shut the hell up, pull up a lawn chair on the roof of your crappy house and watch the would crumble. If we some how manage to evolve than good on us, but don’t expect change any time soon.
July 7th, 2004 at 11:29 am
oh n ps Americans are glutinous fools. This is most likely why they are the fattest country in thr world. Oh how I hate fat people.
July 9th, 2004 at 11:11 am
Oppenheimer realized he had “become Death, the destroyer of worlds” because of the theory that all possibilities become reality along their own unique timelines. When he made the bet with Bohr as to whether or not the atmosphere would ignite or just the bomb, he might have won the bet in our timeline, but in how many others did he lose the bet? DId he think those other timelines were any less real than ours?
Oppenheimer destroyed half of CREATION when he exploded that bomb and he knew it.
He is the greatest crimainal who ever lived.
July 16th, 2004 at 11:07 am
“Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”
If we’re going to count the death tolls and make them all equal, we should all be dead.
“War will make corpses of us all.”
- Tolkien (a man who fought in the Somme and lost his two best friends in horrific assaults on the German lines)
July 17th, 2004 at 10:32 pm
Japan would have surrendered for sure if the US would have dropped the bombs on predetermined non civilian targets, just to prove its capability to hit Japan anywhere with those bombs.
The war in the pacific was an ugly one, but that was no excuse to kill all these civilians when the same “official” results could have been reached another way.
July 23rd, 2004 at 3:28 am
The United States only had three atom bombs in 1945, ONE OF WHICH WAS USED IN A TEST WITH JAPANESE GOVERNMENTAL OBSERVERS WATCHING!!! The Japanese saw the power of our new weapons. The Japanese would NOT have surrendered if the a-bombs were dropped exclusively on military targets.
There was a movie made titled Fat Man and Little Boy. There is a quote from Oppenheimer that is factually accurate, he really said this. In this movie, Oppenheimer says, “if we decide to test one of our three bombs we will face a critical shortage of nuclear material.” Without knowing that the U.S. only had two bombs left, and was without the capacity to make more, the Japanese still refused to surrender.
As an American, I can confirm the fact that Americans take no pride in having dropped the atom bombs on Japan. But the fact is that it WAS neccesary. Personally I think it’s nessecary that the Japanese invasion never took place since my grandfather lived through WW2 and was able to continue my family line all the way to me.
I am a liberal. But, some FAR left citizens and some Europeans, whom I still have respect for, might ask what America, or what I personally got out of my country dropping the bombs on Japan.
I was given the opportunity to live because my grandfather was able to continue my family line instead of facing the very real possibility of becoming 1 of an expected 1 million casualties in the Japanese invasion.
July 23rd, 2004 at 3:29 am
The United States only had three atom bombs in 1945, ONE OF WHICH WAS USED IN A TEST WITH JAPANESE GOVERNMENTAL OBSERVERS WATCHING!!! The Japanese saw the power of our new weapons. The Japanese would NOT have surrendered if the a-bombs were dropped exclusively on military targets.
There was a movie made titled Fat Man and Little Boy. There is a quote from Oppenheimer that is factually accurate, he really said this. In this movie, Oppenheimer says, “if we decide to test one of our three bombs we will face a critical shortage of nuclear material.” Without knowing that the U.S. only had two bombs left, and was without the capacity to make more, the Japanese still refused to surrender.
As an American, I can confirm the fact that Americans take no pride in having dropped the atom bombs on Japan. But the fact is that it WAS neccesary. Personally I think it’s nessecary that the Japanese invasion never took place since my grandfather lived through WW2 and was able to continue my family line all the way to me.
I am a liberal. But, some FAR left citizens and some Europeans, whom I still have respect for, might ask what America, or what I personally got out of my country dropping the bombs on Japan.
I was given the opportunity to live because my grandfather was able to continue my family line instead of facing the very real possibility of becoming 1 of an expected 1 million casualties in the Japanese invasion.
July 24th, 2004 at 3:34 am
ok well i know this is far ahead of the post but who ever siad that they where bread to be sick and twisted in there ways(the japanese) well it seems like you think that beacause the children of these sick and twisted people brian washed them into that trian of thought thought they deserved to die if you grew up in a town surownded with a wall all your life where told that if anyone ever came in to kill them eould you? if your answer is yes then your a lieing bastard so honestly next time you say that they where like that think of the fact that that could have been you abd yes i am aware it stoped that war but personaly i think one bomb and maybe threat of a second who’d have been enuf to be make a point also look up the book tasako of a thousand paper cranes buy it it’s a good book about thet caualty’s of that stupidly design poisinous bonb(S)
July 24th, 2004 at 3:35 am
ok well i know this is far ahead of the post but who ever siad that they where bread to be sick and twisted in there ways(the japanese) well it seems like you think that beacause the children of these sick and twisted people brian washed them into that trian of thought thought they deserved to die if you grew up in a town surownded with a wall all your life where told that if anyone ever came in to kill them eould you? if your answer is yes then your a lieing bastard so honestly next time you say that they where like that think of the fact that that could have been you abd yes i am aware it stoped that war but personaly i think one bomb and maybe threat of a second who’d have been enuf to be make a point also look up the book tasako of a thousand paper cranes buy it it’s a good book about thet caualty’s of that stupidly design poisinous bonb(S)
July 24th, 2004 at 3:36 am
sorry for the repeat stupid computer *kicks it*
August 3rd, 2004 at 12:25 am
Why don’t you all shut the F&%k up!
Nobody is perfect.
The bomb has been dropped, let’s hope it will not be neccesary again.
Some of you, if you have a problem with your own coutry, why don’t you move somewhere else. (I did move to US and I love it)
The truth has to be told… Islam needs reformation
and finally
“We didn’t start the fire
It was always burning,
Since the world’s been turning” by Billy Joel.
So true….
August 3rd, 2004 at 10:33 pm
As german I just want to point out that Germany did not loose the war because the americans attacked, but because of the gankage russia’s army unexpectedly provided while it adapted german art of war. The final turn of the tides occured in Stalingrad, america was just giving water on an already full barrel although the two front war resulted in many more surviving russians who would have been slaughtered if they faced the entire german army.
Whom the USA saved were the british.
The british, although rather good at defense on their own, would have lost years before if they had not been supplied by the american.
About the bombing of Japan, I’d like to defend the american acting. An important influence was certainly the mentality of these reckless warlike times. If Hitler got the A-Bombs, Stalingrad would have been first and there would have been no need for the german army to take it, resulting in victory over russia. After that, London would have surrendered. The USA wouldn’t have entered war with the Hitler. I’d call myself Preuß and live in Germania (formerly Europe).
And the Japanese had actually, as far as I’ve *heard*, the same mentality as the germans. Fight ’till the last bullet or death. So one bomb would have been necessary, although a military target would have been better. Total surrender and a new socialistic democratic government was certainly necessary to grab the evil by the roots.
August 18th, 2004 at 12:54 pm
The US saved the UK would be an interesting debate, albeit a short one. However Jannik is right to say they supplied the UK, in fact sold their help would be even more accurate.
As for the neccessity of dropping the bombs, it depends on what you believe was that neccessity. As has possibly been mentioned elsewhere on this post, the dropping of the bombs had little to do with ending the conflict with Japan, and everything to do with being a demonstration of might to the Russians.
If anyone believes the Japanese had some sort of democratic or social change after the war, you should know that the same Zaibatsu who pulled the Emperor’s strings were not only left virtually untouched, but were quite openly supported by the US. This was again done because of the percieved threat from China and more importantly Russia.
August 27th, 2004 at 11:58 am
The video to “Slither” by Velvet Revolver as featured in the UK, features the line at the top of the page as a closing comment.
That’s how I found you guys.
However, it’s a beautiful line. Needless to say, abused by all and sundry in terms of interpretation, justification & application.
Let it roll.
October 5th, 2004 at 10:28 pm
The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed thousands, but the alternative would have claimed millions of lives. Look this one up on Google or Wikipedia: Operation Olympic. That was the codename for the invasion of the Japanese home islands. In the first week alone, the predicted casualties would have made Iwo Jima look inconsequential. Truman saw the war plans before he made the Potsdam ultimatum, and you can figure out why he offered Japan the choice of surrender or “complete and utter destruction.”
October 9th, 2004 at 1:47 am
Hello, People of the Rainbow-
Let’s not get side-tracked. The original question was; has anyone ever had an Apocoliptic dream with a phrase in it that is similer to the night vision/prophesy the one who needed a real answer to his/her question, then he/she would feel more comfortable knowing they are not alone, had.
Interesting comments though…
We are still miles and miles from realizing the hate that genoside brings…
Our Mother (earth) is sureley weeping…
Our Father (sky) is watching…
As millions, from EVERY RACE pray for Peace.
…MAY JUSTICE AND LIBERTY PREVAIL…
AS OUR FOREFATHERS SIT IN THE CLOUDS AND LAUGH AT OUR FOLLIES,
ANGELS BRING THE VOICES OF THE HEAVENS,
NOT A GOOD SIGN FOR ALL, -GRACE-
I LOVE TO LAUGH BUT I LOVE MORE TO FALL-
IN ALL SERIOUSNESS,
I LOVE ME,
AND YOU,
DON’T TREAD ON ME–
WHILE I MIND MY P’S AND Q’S,
AND SING ABOUT THE BLUES-
DEVINE GENIOUS LOAD US UP
WITH YOUR NEVER-ENDING CUP.
SLOW US DOWN WHEN NEED BE-
AND LET US REALIZE OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO YOU- DEAR (ENTER WORD ie. LORD, GREAT SPIRIT, HOLY GHOST ect…).
US, (BROTHERS AND SISTERS in LOVE)
October 12th, 2004 at 7:26 pm
None of this matters. Quit wasting cyberspace 1’s and 0’s.
October 14th, 2004 at 10:18 pm
You better watch that tongue. Blasphmemer, gid don an prii
December 2nd, 2004 at 9:45 am
most of you need to brush up on your history lessons. `Were we wrong for getting involved in the affairs of others in WWII? Or does that not apply because you benifited from the outcome` the us became involved in world war two for two major reasons pearl harbour and american trade and passenger ships being sunk in the atlantic by german u boats.
and the falklands, yes that was justified!argentina invaded a british state, im sure the us would have done the same if hawaii or alaska had been invaded. and many british infantry,para and marines died during the falklands.
and at the moment the ammount of british soldiers in iraq does not compare to the ammount of us soldiers, and we are there to support you. the iraq war was justified but i think we should have been out months ago. i have just finished my 2nd tour with 42 commando of the royal marines. and since we have been there so long, you civilians would understand the hatred that some iraqi citizens hold for us and british soldiers.
December 12th, 2004 at 3:31 pm
“Iam become death , the destroyer of worlds”
-Robert Oppenheimer
“I have heard these words and seen the face, the bringer of fire to purify this place”
- jax
January 18th, 2005 at 2:00 am
Canada is perfect… After the U.S. has it’s fun in another country, we clean it up. We don’t spend our tax dollars on guns, we spend it on odd concepts like healthcare & foreign aid.
It’s not that we can’t defend ourselves… After America tried to take over Canada, we gave them a sound thrashing, and burnt Washington. We simply prefer not to hurt people because we can.
We’re the first to jump into a war if it’s just, and the first to decline if it’s not.
We also know how to make beer…
Ah, I could go on for hours. But I think the gist is, be nice to people & they’ll be nice to you!
P.S. To the Americans: Quit wearing Canadian flags when you travel so you don’t have to deal with the shit that comes with being American. Deal with it.
P.P.S. You don’t dream of the Apocalypse, when you live in heaven…
January 25th, 2005 at 7:44 pm
hi, i had this dream last night, and it was very scary, i saw God in the email and oddly enough i am an athiest… i guess he works in mysterious ways afterall. I have found God after this dream, i hope it will help you find him too.
The dream is embedded within a couple of other dreams, but when it started it made a strong impression. I was looking at the sky and suddenly the face of an old man with a huge beard protrudes out of the blueness of the sky and commands my attention.
He told me to post this post and let it be known that he contacted me in the dream, and to tell what happens in the dream, he also mentioned something about secrecy, he said that is essential to the movement. I can only speculate he meant the first movement! but then maybe it was connected to his request that none of you speak of this to anyone else.
here’s the dream and may it help you find him who is greatest:
“sarries it far in to the desert and trips while his aunt was eating
the cookie so he continues to dig through the ground and then falls
to the ground but the flee that was buzzing by holds him and gets him
a safe landing. So i cancelled m order to Koofi annan to renew the
treaty of traumatized friendship so that we can order the surrender
of the allied troops of the alliance of northern africa which will
soon reign over the dark parasites of spreadig torture. ”
after all this happened, he leaned toward me and said that the end would come, and he also told me the date… however he made it very clear that i ought not to post the date here.
I will tell you the date if you request it by email though.
May you find him who is greatest, and have a happy day.
January 25th, 2005 at 9:10 pm
Consider this, since the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the stockpiling of massive amounts of nuclear weapons, there has yet to be another world war. Sure there have been wars (that when compared to WWII could only be called battles) since then, but none of these have had millions of casualties. The creation of these weapons has put into place a new aspect of war. Mutually Assured Destruction, or MAD. This theory explains why WWIII has not happened, and likely never will unless a madman comes to power. The very thing that can wipe out the entire Earth has in fact kept the Earth in a relative state of peace for sixty years. Without nuclear weapons to keep the U.S. and Soviet Union in check there would not have been a cold war, there would have been a war that would have completely eclipsed WWII resulting in the utter annihalation of Europe.
February 15th, 2005 at 10:18 pm
The Bomb is not peace and security, but destruction and wild risk.
Allow me to quote Einstein, “I know not with what weapons World War Three will be fought, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones.”
February 20th, 2005 at 1:04 pm
It is easy to destroy, you may be destroyer of all worlds and you may be able to bring destruction. However if you are truely great, you would create.
February 22nd, 2005 at 1:03 pm
you all chew sweaty lumpy ball nuggets and they get blown across ur rear end with ginner sitting on your face smoking a 50. stem will be hot!!!!!!!!!!!n say it
April 10th, 2005 at 1:42 pm
There is no nation, state or empire in history that has not commited humanitarian atrocities - fact.
The use of the atom bomb in WWII was not entirely necessary, regardless of the idea that the Japanese were bred as some kind of superior race-zealots (which is very difficult to believe). Japan and most of the rest of the world was fucked. To suggest that capitulation was completely unfeasable without land invasion or use of atom bombs is untenable.
In fact WWII was basically WWI part 2. WWII was a conflict which could arguably have been avoided had America pulled it’s international weight post WWI instead of leaving it’s own child, the League of Nations, to bleed to death on its arse while it descended into financial masturbation. America saved no one in WWII, it could have pulled its fucking weight earlier, but couldn’t be bothered.
Pearl Harbour was an atrocity, granted, however it was US prescence in the pacific, notably the Phillipines, in an overtly imperialistic manner in the latter 19th century which was the intial pressure point for such a conflict. If you reduce history to ‘well, you started it’ then before you know it you’ve discovered infinity!
It’s also probably a good idea to point out the little emphesised fact that America itself was the purpatrator of one of the most (if not the most) sickening and brutal crimes in world history. That is the extensive and prolonged campaign of genocide against the American Indians, which runs into estimated figures which make the Holocaust look tame. To forestall another point, almost all of this took place after 1777. The country has shown itself to be only superficially apologetic at best.
America is morally and ethically disabled. The seperation of church and state, a necessity for any state which claims to be a liberal democracy, is non-existant. The church in America itself is laughably medieval in its nature - a disease of reactionary, freedom hating simpletons that has infected most of the society with its outdated, implausable and dangerous teachings. (Also, I am a Christian)
It’s political system, especially the selection methods, are completely ineffectual in that the people chosen are so because of various periphary reasons, almost none of them political. Power is held by the rich, the country is nothing but a plutocracy
The schooling system is shockingly morality based (as someone pointed out above), and smacks of the authoritarian system expounded by Plato 2500 years ago, and that was extreme then. There is no reason for morals to be imparted in a state schooling system, it is dangerous for many obvious reasons. The presence of things like creationism in America though does show that the education system has achieved one thing - a level of close minded acceptance and general cretinism that far exceeds that of any nation is history, even the ones which worshipped rocks. Congratulations!
April 10th, 2005 at 1:43 pm
There is no nation, state or empire in history that has not commited humanitarian atrocities - fact.
The use of the atom bomb in WWII was not entirely necessary, regardless of the idea that the Japanese were bred as some kind of superior race-zealots (which is very difficult to believe). Japan and most of the rest of the world was fucked. To suggest that capitulation was completely unfeasable without land invasion or use of atom bombs is untenable.
In fact WWII was basically WWI part 2. WWII was a conflict which could arguably have been avoided had America pulled it’s international weight post WWI instead of leaving it’s own child, the League of Nations, to bleed to death on its arse while it descended into financial masturbation. America saved no one in WWII, it could have pulled its fucking weight earlier, but couldn’t be bothered.
Pearl Harbour was an atrocity, granted, however it was US prescence in the pacific, notably the Phillipines, in an overtly imperialistic manner in the latter 19th century which was the intial pressure point for such a conflict. If you reduce history to ‘well, you started it’ then before you know it you’ve discovered infinity!
It’s also probably a good idea to point out the little emphesised fact that America itself was the purpatrator of one of the most (if not the most) sickening and brutal crimes in world history. That is the extensive and prolonged campaign of genocide against the American Indians, which runs into estimated figures which make the Holocaust look tame. To forestall another point, almost all of this took place after 1777. The country has shown itself to be only superficially apologetic at best.
America is morally and ethically disabled. The seperation of church and state, a necessity for any state which claims to be a liberal democracy, is non-existant. The church in America itself is laughably medieval in its nature - a disease of reactionary, freedom hating simpletons that has infected most of the society with its outdated, implausable and dangerous teachings. (Also, I am a Christian)
It’s political system, especially the selection methods, are completely ineffectual in that the people chosen are so because of various periphary reasons, almost none of them political. Power is held by the rich, the country is nothing but a plutocracy
The schooling system is shockingly morality based (as someone pointed out above), and smacks of the authoritarian system expounded by Plato 2500 years ago, and that was extreme then. There is no reason for morals to be imparted in a state schooling system, it is dangerous for many obvious reasons. The presence of things like creationism and George Bush in America though does show that the education system has achieved one thing - a level of close minded acceptance and general cretinism that far exceeds that of any nation is history, even the ones which worshipped rocks, or the ones that married their sisters. Congratulations!
April 13th, 2005 at 2:57 am
I have read all the extant entries with great interest. I am impressed with the sincerity of most comments. I’d like to add a few mental associations.
So much of the problem at this moment is the arrogance of the neocoms. They have abandoned any serious attempt to make the USA a member of the community of nations but instead an alien to all international organizations. Their minds know nothing else than American excepcionalism (The others have to do this, not us) and love of military power rather than the leadership of the world community which properly should belong to us.
There are plenty of historical precedents of why hegemonic powers eventually fall. The case of Athens after the defeat of the Persians keeps on coming to my mind. They formed the Delian league which which was for the mutual defense of all Greek states. But Athens became very pushy and exacted very high contributions from the other members. The speaker for one of the islands complained: “We have always been your friends and allies. Why are you now treating us as if we were enemies?” To this the Athenian replied: “We are doing this because if you were in our position and we in yours you be doing to us what we are now doing to you.” Within a relatively short time Athens had lost the war to the Spartans and their allies. This was the end of hegemon.
I am not at all optimistic. Show me an Armenian who loves Turkey or a Jew who loves the Germans. These hatreds become institutionalizad and last forever. This war against Iraq was simply a gross mistake. It was based on wrong information and exaggerated fear mongering. We have killed many Iraqui civilians unnecesarily and they will not forget.It was a case of been attacked by Peter, so now we attack Paul.
Our schools fail us miserably and they will get
worse as they tackle Creationism and ban Evolution. American history, except at college and university levels is almost pure mythology and follows the Napoleonic ideas of universal education. The important thing is to instill patriotic values and hang the truth. After more than fifty years the Chinese are out in mass protesting Japan’s reluctance to admit and disown their war crimes. We are big enough and human enough to admit where we have been wrong and this is not unpatriotic.
I am pessimistic because by the time we are not divided by religion, nationalism and ethnicity we will certainly find something else to fight about.
PS> I’m a Korean war veteran.
April 19th, 2005 at 6:03 pm
George Bush was elected because the average U.S. citizen feels engulfed by anti-Americanism from the rest of the world, and inside our own borders. Japan was not helpless. Before we used the bomb, they could have invaded our west coast. The A-bomb was used to demoralize the Japanese, not destroy their military. It worked. Do you think that Hitler and Stalin didn’t take notice that we became a nuclear power before everyone else? I can’t believe anti-Americans will bring up WW2 and try to use it against our nation. The nuke was a calculated decision. We knew that there would be more casualties on both sides if we invaded. 60 years later, Japan has a GDP of $3.5 trillion. You bring up the fact that we didn’t get involved until the ‘end’ of the war. Would that have been the ‘end’ of the war if we ‘did not’ get involved? Probably not. We were pragmatic. Can you really blame us for wanting to profit from the war, when not 2 decades earlier a great depression swept our nation.
We are the most powerful nation in the world. With that titles comes privilege of being everyone’s ally and the risk of becoming everyone’s enemy. You should be grateful we are the single superpower on the planet. Would you be happier with the WW2 Luffwaffe or the Cold War Soviets ruling your country with an iron fist?
You say we are christian idealogs. We don’t have a national church or religion. We have secular school systems and government. My biggest problem with this is I myself am an atheist. Christian idealogy was creeping in during the 1950’s because of the hatred of the atheist/communism Soviet government. As for the comment on Native American ‘genocide’.. we have swung from “the wicked redskins” to “the noble Native American who could do no wrong”. It wasn’t genocide. It was a war like any other, but we just had better toys. Any self-respecting native-American that knows our history will admit that. Just because there was a smallpox epidemic doesn’t mean we did it intentionally. That blanket bullcrap is exactly that… crap.
April 22nd, 2005 at 12:42 pm
Did you read what I wrote? If America had gotten involved in the world situation at the end of WWI then there might very well have not been a WWII. It was an American who developed the League of Nations, and his country fucked him over when he asked them to support it.
Furthermore your assertions on the state of Japan, her armed forces and the reasons for the use of nuclear weapons are pure supposition and thus should be disregarded.
As for profiting from the war, the depression was largely self-inflicted due to quite poor financial policies, although the collateral damage spread across the world, helping compound tensions that would lead to WWII. If America’s involvement was through the League and not through making payments to Germany it could be argued that this situation could have been circumvented. Tio suggest that profiting from the war was right is sickening, I know eveyone else did it, but it’s still sickening. If anyone had right to profit from the war is was Russia who suffered the brunt of it. As for America saving everyone, again the English seemed to hold Hitler off pretty well at the Battle of Britain and again the Russian winter has been the death of amny an invasion, help from the west or no. If we’re going to play the supposition game I hope you know you’re history.
As for religion and the school system, well do some research. It seems pretty damn clear to me that politics in America is constantly pandering to the religious right, and that isn’t to even scratch the surface. The seperation of church and state seems to be largely mythical. Let’s look at abortion. Bush is working against it either because of his personal religious views or because he wishes to please the religious. Both ways it is an example of the seperation between church and state being sullied; the decision should be left to the individual, and if they’re religious then don’t have he abortion. What is happening is that the religious are trying to impart their ideals through the state. Sound like a seperation? Doesn’t matter if you’re an atheist, doesn’t mean the church has no bearing on politics. We’re not talking a theocracy here, just influence. Influence which shouldn’t be allowed in any modern liberal state.
As for education I refer you to Julia Annas’ Understanding Plato.
As for the American Indians, well when the Brits were kicked out they had stuck generally to their colonies on the coast. Then expansion occured, at the expense of the American Indian, with no justification. It may not have explicitly been a genocide, but the legacy is largely that of a systemsied elimination. This is disregarding the humiliating and brutal way in which much of the conquest was effected. How was it a war like any other? Were they a threat? If you had better ‘toys’ (which goes a long way to show how Americans see weapons in this day and age) why would they want to attack? They were trying to take your land, but wait, it was their land. It was Imperialism, just like when Britain first went over there and you kicked them out, remember?
Either way, my comments on the American Indians were just to illustrate that every nation in history has commited atrocities, but some are less willing to remember them that others. The tenor of your comments suggests to me that you are fully versed in the wonders of the American education system. You have not made any concerted effort to dispell the points made here, you have just regurgitated the same defense that is always made. I don’t hate America, or Americans, I know many friendly ones. I just think that the basis of the state is extremely questionable in terms of morals and its physical workings.
I would like to hear Old Man’s views on this as well. It was refreshing to find someone who by all rights I would expect to be a Conservative being objective; much respect for that, as well as for fighting in Korea.
You may be the most powerful country in the world, but that doesn’t make you good, just or infallible. The movement to a uni-polar world is not under any circumstances a good one. Also you’re not the only ’superpower’; Islam seems to be doing a fine job of dulling America’s sheen somewhat.
April 22nd, 2005 at 12:48 pm
I hope you know ‘your history’, not ‘you’re history.’
For physical workings, I mean the machinery nd structure of the administrative system of the USA.
May 17th, 2005 at 7:04 pm
First of all the bobmings saved millions of lives, and it was most likely to scare russia also since the big 3 had been growing apart towards the end of the war, they were also given fair warning about the bombing and the firebombing of tokyo killed more, the fire bombings were an act of total war the first act of total war in which you try to break the enemy by any means possible to break their will to fight, the japanese commmited many war crimes against the us soldiers in the pacific war each side looked at their enemy as less than human, also the emporer of japan had released a newspaper article stating that there were no civilians in japan and that they would fight to the last man i dont know how many people lived in japan at that time but it was many million atleast the us wasnt even sending the people with injuries home they were gathering their forces from both the european and pacific theatres, both were wrong and could have been avoided if the allies hadnt stated that they would only accept an unconditional surrender from japan but which is the lesser of two evils and how do you all think it was the first act of terrorism what about pearl harbour or hitlers acts against humanity couldnt those be considered terrorism and im sure there were acts before that too actually im certain there were its human nature to fight and it cant be changed no matter how much we try to cover it up. I’m an American and im proud to be one i report history they way your supposed and they way most do, in an unbiased way if it is biased than you have many more sources that can disprove that source. Frankly i think the rest of the world are unfit to rule themselves the europeans always cause wars because of family feuds the middle, asia believes that theyre superior to all other races, south america is still wild and poor same with africa except africa cant seem to stick with a certain government, and australia they isolate themselves too much. A friend of my history teacher told her ” America may not always do whats popular but they always do whats right.”
p.s.- they’re are more than enough things wrong with the world today to fix so why dont you stop arguing about whats done and cant be changed and try to fix whats wrong in the world toay like the environment and politics. These all have enough breakoff topics that could save humanity if you loked around you could find how little life is surviving by.So maybe we should get rid of all these little countries, and have only one (America, so that we can start thinking about ourselves as humans and not british or american or french or japanese, think of what could be accomplished theres no limit to the potential
May 19th, 2005 at 10:26 am
I was lucky to stumble upon this thread! I am a young American college graduate living and working in Japan. Recently, I’ve been trying to come to terms with what it means to be American.
I can’t be very patriotic about a government has made a mockery of itself. Democracy is a joke in America. How many puppet dictators has America supported over the years? How many democratic movements has it quashed in the interests of the power elite? Uzbekistan is just the latest in a long list of democracies subverted by American foreign policy.
What the hell are disenting Americans supposed to do? I don’t fit in anymore! A bunch of my friends in college were in ROTC. One of them is getting shipped to Iraq soon and another one can’t wait to “kill people.” The sad thing is, these were some of the most intelligent, disciplined people I have ever known.
It seems to me as if America has lost it’s moral highground. America is now breeding bigotted killers in mass. We are using technology unwisely, ignoring international treaties and destroying some of the greatest land on earth. I’m getting quite depressed actually. I feel so powerless! I wan’t to do something to make America a better place to live but I don’t know what to do…
Like I said, I’ve been living in Japan for about a year now. However, I made the decision to go back to America this July. I really wonder if I made the right decision… I’m begening to think that American culture is in decay. I want to make a good life for me, my friends and my family but I just don’t know how to….
May 19th, 2005 at 10:44 am
Please remember, I don’t hate America! I’m just having problems dealing with the disparity between what I was raised to believe America was about and what is actually done in the name of America.
May 24th, 2005 at 12:27 pm
America has become a tyrant. The government has been ruled by material desires since the time of JFK. Always wanting what is best for the richest Americans. The moon, Vietnam, Oil in Iraq. Bush couldn’t find Bin Laden, so he decided to destroy Iraq, what is going on? What right is it of his to invade a country that he or any westerner has absoulutley no idea about. The american government would have you believe that Al Quiada formed recently to terrorize the world. In fact, that organziation began in the late 18th century to combat the views of Al Farabi who tried to prove that the Quran(Arabic Bible) should be allowed to be read in english. There you go, they had no ill will to Bush or America until he shit all over their homes.
At least Hitler put a gun to his head when he realized he had screwed up…..
May 26th, 2005 at 9:03 pm
No. The original quote was: *ahem* “A few people laughed, a few people cried, more were silent. There floated through my mind a line from the Bhagavad Gita in which Krishna is trying to persuade the prince that he should do his duty: ‘I am become death, shatterer of worlds.’ I think we all had that feeling, more or less.”
Hey, Anonymous… Shut the fuck up. If you want to talk to people about history, it helps to have a general idea about, you know, stuff that happened before you were alive. So, you think that al Quaeda was violent in response to Bush II? Fuck you. Ever hear of a little migration called the ZIONIST MOVEMENT? Asshole. It was a response to WWII and the displacement of the Jews, who demanded a state be set aside for them. So the LON kicked everyone off of modern Israel and put the Jews there. To imply that this violence is a recent development cements your ideas in a stasis of idiocy. To imply that this violence is a response to my country’s political climate insures that I will remember your post as an idealogical rant based on assupmtions you can’t prove. We are the ONLY power backing the nation Israel. What started out as a mess started by France, Germany, Britain, and the rest of the League is now being cleaned up by MY COUNTRY’S SOLDIERS. Let me remind you, assmunch, that the United States backed the Nation of Israel, but had no forceful part in organizing it. WE clean up YOUR mess, not just now, but since we arrived at the doorstep of freedom. We have ALWAYS cleaned up your messes, and we ALWAYS will. So do us all a favor and next time, try and actually think before implying that my country shit all over some pathetic Arab civilization. Our only crime is preventing Holocaust II. We pull our army out, they die, we get criticized. We keep them in, we get criticized and WE get killed. So either solve it or shut the fuck up, you ignorant dick. If anyone wanted to hear your wanton crucifixtion of a nation you depend upon, we would have asked. After all, we control your world economy.
And as for being ruled by “material desieres,” well, I’m gonna have to say it once again: fuck you. First of all, why “since JFK?” It seems fairly random. What major economic change happened during JFK? That’s bullshit. I don’t know where you are in the world, but you have a computer. I assume you have clothes, electricity, the INTERNET, and other like luxuries. It’s mighty hypocritical of you to purport that Americans are greed-driven assholes, especially since you enjoy most of the luxuries we do. You make blatant statements like, “Always wanting what is best for the richest Americans.” Yeah, that’s justified, since ALL Americans (including the poor) look out for the richest Americans. Next time, do your research, dipshit.
June 2nd, 2005 at 4:37 pm
your a true american “Fuck You” i coldnt have said it better myself, i hate those stereotyping europeans we try to clean up the messes they started and we get bitched i say screw the rest of the world and keep only the allies that have always stuck by us
June 6th, 2005 at 5:07 pm
Yeah, but the thing is that Americans haven’t really alway’s cleaned up Europe’s messes, you’ve been involved in 99.9% of them since independence, one way or another. To suggest any kind of seperation from European events would necessitate a long period of political and economic isolation, which didn’t happen.
As for Zionism, that wasn’t Europe’s fault any more than any other part of the world. As for backing Israel the only reason that America does that is because it is the only bargaining chip it has in the Middle East. Britain left Palestine after WWII, trying, but unable to stop the influx of Jewish migrants. Zionism started long before the holocaust and was simply a movement for the repopulation of the Holy Land with the Jews, who had been expelled from Palestine in 117 AD by the Romans - IT HAD NO SOLID EUROPEAN PRETEXT ANY MORE THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE REST OF THE WORLD HAD STARTED THE MOVEMENT.
It isn’t a European mess, it’s a religious mess which has been brewing for 200 years now, America’s involvement is purely self serving - they saw a way to get into the old lands of the European Empires, and moreso as a place to wage war by proxy against the Soviets, like in Korea and Vietnam et al. America doesn’t and never really needed to support Zionism, the simple fact is that after WWII the West (America included) felt guilty about the holocaust and pledged their support. I question your true knowledge of history, and suspect it to be amatuer at best. America may be the most poweful and helped tip the balance in 2 world wars, but to depict America as some kind of rightous, impartial saviour is completely and utterly wrong. American hands are and have always been dirty, it’s just that they wait until the end of something to come in and steamroller it because the only way they can solve things is by hitting them with hammers. and it also makes them look good.
I’m sure adalo and Anonymous know what I’m talking about rather than the closed minded, self-satisfied, fully inculcated American automatons. Any thoughts adalo, Anonymous?
July 21st, 2005 at 10:09 am
America is the best country ever. I, and a larger percentage of people in the American sphere of influence are freer and better off emotionally and psychologically than any other time since people were hunter-gatherers. All nations run on blood, conquest, oppression, foolish policies that cause much death. But for sure the communists and the Muslims are much worse, and the Japanese, and the Germans as well… Just look at how much better we treat women than those countries. Study history and anthropology honestly and you will agree with Sir Winston Churchill that “‘There I sat,’ he said of the Tehran conference in 1943, ‘with the great Russian bear on one side of me, with paws outstretched, and on the other side the great American buffalo, and between the two sat the poor little English donkey who was the only one who knew the right way home.” No wait I meant “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” I hate liberals and conservatives and nationalists and all you opinionated assholes. The internet is such a mirror into the ugly side, you see it all in these posts: mockery, judgementalness, baseless opinions, and hate. Smile and be nice instead. The world will be a better place, and masturbate all the time.
July 23rd, 2005 at 9:14 pm
Are you being ironic?
August 1st, 2005 at 5:50 pm
Mike….in all seriousness U R A CLOWN. can u believe wot u have said….u may believe that america is “awesome”…..but how good wud the world be if americans wernt a bunch of arrogant dickheads…..and sori to all americans who r nice etc etc…..its people like “Mike the clown” who give u a bad name. i dont hate americans…..i jus dont like ppl who are arrogant…..and unfortunately….most americans seem to be arrogant….”America is the best country ever. I, and a larger percentage of people in the American sphere of influen”…..blah blah blah blah…..shut the fuck up mike. Hilter was a bad person….and he took things too far…..but at least it was accepted he was a dictator. how much different is George W Bush from him….ok lets see 1/ both kill innocent ppl….check 2/both believe(d) the their race was a super race…..check 3/ both knew that the key to successwas brain washing ppl wen they wer young…..check and finally…….both had a never ending thirst for power…..check. at least hitler was honest….he told no lies about wot he was doin….”Oh yeah…..im gonna invade russia cause theres weapons of mass bestruction and they are very very bad ppl and need to be punished and because we are the best ppl in the owrld we will judge them etc etc etc”……lets jus hope it all ends in the same way……..
…..the machine rages on…..
August 1st, 2005 at 5:54 pm
“God bless america”….jus another example my friends
August 7th, 2005 at 10:01 am
Hmmm… did u know that our atomsphere is composed of 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen.
What worries me is that if some careless scientist/government creates a weapon capable of initiating a chain reaction of nitrogen or oxygen, our planet would cease to exist in an instant.
Sounds like science fiction, but 100 years ago,
would you have believed an A-Bomb was possible?
Go figure! (-_-)
August 7th, 2005 at 7:25 pm
“Hitler had the right idea, he was just an under achiever !” Quote The late And most excellent Bill Hicks, Damn! lighten up you guys! there is good and bad in every country! we are no better than each other really…
“one day the meak shall inherit the earth”….at least they wont fuck it up like we humans do.
August 16th, 2005 at 10:03 pm
Sanguinas, your understanding of WW2 history is greatly lacking, and your attitude is needlessly hostile. America is a great nation, and no, im not american. Bush is an asshole, this I would agree with, but to claim he is as bad or worse than Hitler is a pile of ignorant nonsense.
Hitler was not honest. Hitler was a liar, of a greater and more vilainous sort than Bush. He lied and said he wouldn’t invade Czechoslovakia, and he did. He made a non aggression pact with USSR, and then he invading them when it was convenient. He used systematic annihilation of a race of people. Bush doesn’t think any particular race is superior, he thinks his religion is superior, which is just as bad, but he’s not trying to execute every none Christian in the world.
I would love to see how you might have handled yourself in some Nazi occupied state. Ironically, for a post of the sort you just made, you’d be arrested and probably killed. Don’t be so short sighted. Sure Bush is a bad person, but don’t you dare trivialise the utter evil that was Adolf Hitler.
August 19th, 2005 at 10:49 pm
This debate could go on forever, so I might as well join in.
1. Those who say Japan was going to surrender, even before the use of the atomic bomb, are incorrent — there is absolutely no documentation to support that claim. In fact, there is a great deal of documentation to show that Japan had no intention of surrendering. The Japanese were in fact, fortifying specific sites on their shores in preparation of a major American landing. This is not something one does when preparing to surrender. Furthermore, recent information is being de-classified to show that the Japanese were pursuing and developing their own atomic bomb. The excalated use of kamikaze pilots, the military build-up on Japanese shores, and their extensive research in arms should tell us all that the Japanese were in no way ready to surrender.
When thinking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, one must also remember the historical context surrounding it. The fact is, total war was very much a reality in WWII. The Germans bombed London, the Soviets destroyed Berlin, the Japanese raped and murdered thousands of Chinese civilians, and the US fire-bombed Tokyo (which I may add caused more deaths than the atomic bomb at Hiroshima — why does nobody talk about that?). Setting off an atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn’t a big jump from these events. Does that make it ok? Not really. As Westerners (note that I did not say “Americans”), we should hold ourselves to a higher standard of moral culpability — this ability and freedom to question is the our defining characteristic. Having said that, we cannot look at these events from a standpoint that is 50 years removed. Total war is unacceptable now, but was not then. It was common practise.
2. Many say that the United States continues to pursue a foreign policy that is completely selfish, dangerous and amoral. Of course. The role of our government is to protect civilian interest. I have news for everyone — the comfortable life we lead is directly related to the foreign policy the government has maintained; particularly its economic dominance. So if you want a fairer world, a world with more economic equity, we must be prepared to sacrifice some of our luxuries. It is a noble sacrifice, but one that I suspect few are willing to make.
August 21st, 2005 at 1:31 pm
firstly…..spell the name right
secondly……fuck off zillah
and lastly…..u dont understand wot im trying to say. if americans wernt so arrogant there wudnt be a problem. im not saying all americans are bad, some are very nice…..but the way they are brought up….well some of them……they are made to believe they are better than other ppl. i shud be arrested and shot….fuck off like and my “your understanding of WW2 history is greatly lacking”…..i did actually study ww2 and weimar or about 4 years….i jus didnt understand i was gonna be goiving a history lesson. and comparing bush to hitler….fair point…hitler wasnt honest….but do u really believe bush wanted iraq because he thought the had dangerous weapons…..bullshit…..he wanted the oil……bush may not be as bad as hilter…..but there are comparisons…..jus give him time. also, luckily for us…..the world is different now…..we probably wudnt be able to have a repeat performance of hilter
lacrimosa dies illa, que reserget la favilla….judicandus homo reus
September 27th, 2005 at 11:36 pm
First of all, who are you crack heads that think those kamikaze Japs where going to surrender? I mean, what kind of self respecting kamikaze surrenders? Have you looked up the word kamikaze? Do you know what it means? Secondly, I do not understand how you Euros, who started the two bloodest wars ever can accuse the USA of any wrong doing? I mean who the fuck cares how we ended the war? The key point here is, YOU STARTED IT, WE ENDED IT. Now you are going to critcize HOW we ended it? Go fuck yourself. I lost family members fighting in YOUR war. In my eyes punishment is a deterent, therefore the punishment should be about 100 times worse than the crime.
Also, just wondering how you classify a terrorist. I mean it seems like a misnomer to me. Personally, no one instills terror in me. I simply find ways to protect myself from any threats. For instance, I am going to start carrying a pig with me whenever I fly. No Muslim/Terrorist would ever want to die with a pig. I just need to breed some small pigs for carry on…
October 20th, 2005 at 1:08 am
“If america didn’t get involved in WWII all of europe would probably be speaking german right now. Except for jews, gypsies, russians, gays, free thinkers, intellects, the handicapped, artists, any ethnics and a whole host of others. They would have been exterminated.”
This is ridiculous. Get off your high horse yourself. Honestly…bloody Americans. I’m not saying that you’re all a bunch of raging melodramatic egomaniacs (I’ve met some pretty great Americans), but it’s really hard not to when we’re bombarded with people who think this way. You think everyone should be so damn grateful that you came along and “made our lives so much easier”. Well what do you want? A big “thank you for joining in on WWII way too bloody late when most of the damage was done and then claiming all the credit for being our ’saviours’”? There you go then, now drop it, it happened a long enough time ago. Maybe you should start getting over yourselves for “rescuing” the rest of the world and consider that all the propaganda you’ve been fed might not be entirely accurate…just a thought.
October 20th, 2005 at 1:23 am
Oh…one more thought–to those considering argueing a point with someone and actually sounding even remotely intelligent might consider not throwing in a ridiculous insult like “assmunch” after every pourly worded sentence…it tends to detract from the point you may be trying to make.
November 12th, 2005 at 5:31 pm
For crying out loud. Well said. My grandfather always talked about him, his brothers,and cousins were ready and wanting to go stop the aggression, and could not understand why we waited. He took this question to his grave, and with some shame. and he was a patriot. God Bless